"MSV CLUB" - The Discussion Forum of MSVTimes.com
Official Website of M.S.Viswanathan - Legendary Indian Composer
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

WHAT RAAGA IS "MALLIGAI EN MANNAN MAYANGUM" ?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    "MSV CLUB" - The Discussion Forum of MSVTimes.com Forum Index -> Pick a Song and Analyze!
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
N Y MURALI
Maniac


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: WHAT RAAGA IS "MALLIGAI EN MANNAN MAYANGUM" ? Reply with quote

DEAR FRIENDS,

DISCUSSION HAS BEEN GOING EVER SINCE THIS SONG CAME IN TO EXISTANCE. SOME VERY RENOUNDED CARNATIC MUSICIANS HAVE MENTIONED WITH AMUSEMENT THAT THEY SOME HOW COULD NOT MAKE OUT THE RAAGA OF THIS SONG.

I WANT TO SHARE MY THOUGHT ABOUT THIS ASPECT OF THE SONG.
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THIS SONG HAS BEEN COMPOSED WITH NO RAAGA IDEA IN MIND BY MSV. IT HAS BEEN COMPOSED WITH THE TONES OF 6 CHORDS. THE NOTES OR THE SWARAMS OF THESE CHORDS HAVE BEEN USED TO LINK ONE TONE WITH ANOTHER TO PRODUCE THIS MASTER PIECE MELODY.

I SHALL TRY TO EXPLAIN. I AM ASSUMING THIS SONG IS TO BE PLAYED IN “C” SCALE IN WESTERN TERMS OR “SHRUTHI 1” IN CARNATIC TERM. LET US ANALYSIE THIS SONG.

THE PALLAVI HAS BEEN COMPOSED WITH THE NOTES OF 5 CHORDS
‘C MINOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘SA’ ‘GA1’, ‘PA’
‘F MAJOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘SA’ ‘MA2’, ‘DA2’
‘D SHARP MAJOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘GA1’ ‘PA, ‘NI1’
‘B MINOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘NI1’ ‘RI2’, ‘MA2’
‘G MINOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘PA’ ‘NI1’, ‘RI2’

NOW IF WE ANALISE THIS PALLAVI IN TERMS OF RAAGA THEN IT CONSISTS OF THE SWARAMS ‘SA’, ‘RI2’, ‘GA1’, ‘MA2’, ‘PA’, ‘DA2’, NI1’
IF WE MAKE OUT THE RAAGA THEN IT IS LIKE

THE AAROHANAM
‘SA’, ‘RI2’ ‘GA1’, ‘MA2’, ‘PA’, ‘DA2’, ‘NI1’
THE AWAROHANAM
‘SA’, ‘NI1’, ‘DA2’,‘PA’,‘MA2’,‘GA1,’‘RI2’

FROM THIS WE CAN CONCLUDE THAT THIS IS IN RAAGA KARAHARAPRIYA.
BUT HOLD ON. OUR ENTIRE CONCLUSION OF THIS PALLAVI IN KARAHARAPRIYA RAAGA GOES FOR A SIX WHEN THE CHARANAM COMES.

THE CHARANAM OF THIS SONG HAS BEEN COMPOSED IN TWO PARTS.

THE FIRST PART HAS BEEN COMPOSED WITH THE NOTES OF 5 CHORDS
‘C MAJOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘SA’ ‘GA2’, ‘PA’
‘F MAJOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘SA’ ‘MA2’, ‘DA2’
‘D SHARP MAJOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘GA1’ ‘PA, ‘NI1’
‘C MINOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘SA’ ‘GA1’, ‘PA’
‘G MINOR’ THE NOTES ARE ‘PA’ ‘NI1’, ‘RI2’

THE SECOND PART OF THE CHARANAM IS THE SAME TUNE AS THE PALLAVI . (COMPARE WHEN YOU HEAR THE TUNE OF THE LINE “EN KANNAN THUNJATHAN EN NENJAM MANJAM THAN” AND “MALLIGAI EN MANNAN”).

THE SWARAMS THAT COMES IN THE USAGE OF THE CHARANAM ARE ‘SA’, ‘RI2’, ‘GA1’, ‘GA2’, ‘MA2’, ‘PA’, ‘DA2’, ‘NI1’

NOW WHERE IS KARAHARAPRIYA? HOW CAN IT BE CALLED AS KARAHARAPRIYA WHEN THE MELODY COMES IN THE MIXTURE OF ‘GA2’. THE SWARAM ‘GA2’ IS FOREIGN TO KARAHARAPRIYA. SO WE CANNOT CALL THIS ENTIRE MELODY BY ANY RAAGA NAME.

WE COULD STILL ARGUE THAT IT CONTAINS ALL THE SWARAMS OF KARAHAPRIYA EXCEPT THAT OF ‘GA1’ SO IT IS ALMOST LIKE KARAHAPRIYA. IF THAT BE CASE YOU GIVE A LIST OF ABOUT 500 SONGS IN WESTREN MUSIC AND I SHALL TELL YOU THE NAMES OF THE RAAGAS WHICH WILL BE ALMOST SIMILAR.

WHAT MSV HAS DONE IS THAT HE HAS CLEVERLY USED A WESTERN CONCEPT CALLED CHORDS USE THE NOTATIONS OF THIS CHORD AND LINKED ONE WITH ANOTHER TO CREATE HIS MELODIES. THOUGH HE HAS USED A WESTERN CONCEPT BY HEARING THIS SONG THE SONG DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A WESTERN MUSIC. IT LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE AN INDAIN MUSIC. IT IS ALWAYS INDIAN STYLE. AND MORE TO THAT IT EXPRESSED THE EMOTION OF A ‘SUMANGALI’ TO HER HUSBAND WHICH IS UNIQUE FOR INDIA. YOU ALL KNOW THAT INDIA IS APPRECIATED FOR THE STRONG FAMILY BONDAGE. SO THE SONG EXPRESSES ALL THESE EMOTIONS.

SO WHEN MSV USED THIS STYLE IT WAS LOOKED AS VERY UNIQUE STYLE. LIKE THIS HE HAS COMPOSED 1000 OF SONGS DURING 1960 TO TILL DATE.

BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE HAS NOT COMPOSED BASED ON RAAGA. I SHALL GIVE EXAMPLE OF 3 SONGS WHICH MSV HAS COMPOSED IN KARAHARAPRIYA ITSELF.


TAKE FOR EXAMPLE 3 OF MSV SONGS COMPOSED IN THE SAME RAAGA KARAHARAPRIYA.

‘MADHAVI PON MAYILAL’ IN ‘IRU MALARGAL’ IS THE CARNATIC CLASSICAL VERSION.

‘MAHARAJAN ULAGAI AALALAM’ IN ‘KARNAN’ IS ALSO IN THE SAME RAAGA BUT WITH MORE OF A HINDUSTANI STYLE.

‘I WILL SING FOR YOU, I WILL DANCE FOR YOU AATTAM ENNA SOLLUDI THOZHI NAAN AADIDUVEN KONJA NAZHI’ ( I HAVE FORGOTTEN THE MOVIE NAME) IS A FUSION MUSIC. THAT IS, IT COMBINES THE STYLE OF WESTERN AND CARNATIC. IF WE NOTICE THE LINE ‘I WILL SING FOR YOU’ AND ‘I WILL DANCE FOR YOU’ IT IS FOLLOWED BY GUITAR CHORDS TO INCREASE THE EFFFECT OF WESTERNNESS. THE NEXT LINE ‘AATTAM ENNA SOLLUDI’ IS THE CARNATIC STYLE. SO IT IS FUSION MUSIC.

NOW IF WE COMPARE THESE 3 SONGS WITH THE MELODY OF PALLAVI OF MALLIGAI EN MANNAN (BECAUSE AT LEAST THE PALLAVI SATISFIES THE RAAGA) AND SEE WHAT IMPRESSION WE GET. IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT THESE THREE WOULD BE SIMILAR TO THE SONG ‘MALLIGAI EN MANNA MAYANGUM’. IF IS THE SAME THEN THE CARNATIC LEGENDS WHO WERE TRYING TO FIND THE RAAGA NAME OF THIS SONG WOULD HAVE TOLD US THAT ATLEAST IT IS MORE OR LIKE KARAHAPRIYA. BUT BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH AS I MENTIONED EARLER THE PALLAVI SATISFIES THE KARAHAPRIYA NOTATION THE SHEAR USAGE OF THE NOTES AS A NOTATION OF THE CHRODS AND NOT AS A RAAGA MADE THEM THINK THAT IT IS NOT KARAHARAPRIYA.

FOR INSTANCE HOW DO WE EXPRESS RAAGA KARAHARAPRIYA
THE AAROHANAM
‘SA’, ‘RI2’ ‘GA1’, ‘MA2’, ‘PA’, ‘DA2’, ‘NI1’
THE AWAROHANAM
‘SA’, ‘NI1’, ‘DA2’,‘PA’,‘MA2’,‘GA1,’‘RI2’
SO THERE ARE 7 SWARAMS.

BUT THIS CAN ALSO EXPRESSED AS TH FOLLOWING CHORDS
C MINOR CHROD – SA, GA1, PA
B MINOR CHORD – RI2, MA2, NI1
F MAJOR CHORD – MA2, DA2, SA
HERE ALSO THERE ARE SAME 7 SWARAMS.

CARNATIC RAAGA BASED COMPOSERS WOULD LOOK AT THE SWARAMS AS KARAHARAPRIYA FOR COMPOSTION.

BUT MSV WOULD LOOK AT LOOK THESE CHRODS AS INDIVIDUAL TONES.
WITH THESE TONES YOU ADD ANOTHER TONE LIKE C MAJOR WHICH HAS ‘SA’ ‘GA2’ ‘PA’. IT HAS A TOTTALY DIFFERENT TONE. BY MIXING THE NOTES OF C MAJOR HE COULD PRODUCE DIFFERENT MELODY AND THERE BY THERE IS CONFUSIN ABOUT RAAGA.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE STYLE MSV ADOPTED DURING 1960S TO TILL DATE.

I ALREADY MENTIONED THAT MY HOBBY IS TO PLAY ALL MSV SONGS AND TRY TO FIND OUT HOW HAS STRUCTERED THE MELODIES. I MYSELF BEING A COMPOSER, I ALWAYS COMPOSE SONGS WITH THE RAAGA BASED CONCEPT. I MIX SOME ADDTIIONAL SWARAMS IN ORDER TO CREATE A MELODY SO THAT IT LOOKS LIKE MELLISAI. SO IT IS QUITE NATURAL FOR ME TO APPROACH THIS SONG IN THE SAME METHOD AND TRIED TO PLAY AS A RAAGA CONCEPT. BUT I COULD NOT FIND OUT THE EXACT SWARAMS EVEN AFTER TRYING FOR OVER 250 TIMES. BUT LATER ON WHEN I LEARNT THE CONCEPT OF CHORDS SUDDENLY THIS IDEA STRUCK ME. SO I TRIED TO FIND OUT FROM THE CHORDS BASED METHOD. WHAT A SURPRISE. IT ALL STATED FLOWING LIKE WATER FALLS. JUST IN COUPLE OF TRIALS I COULD PLAY THE WHOLE MELODY. IN THIS REGARD I ALSO WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU THAT I NEVER LEARNT ANY PROPER CARNATIC MUSIC OR ANY OTHER USIC FOR THAT MATTER. EVEN HORMINIUM I LEARNT TO PLAY FROM A TEACHER ONLY FOR 2 MONTHS. EVEN NOW I CAN PROPABLY SHARE MORE INFO ABOUT HIS MELODIES. BUT I KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ‘THALAMS (RYTHMS) IS ABSOULTELY ZERO. I CANNOT EVEN WRITE NOTATIONS OF THE COMPOSTION WITH THE TIMING THAT IS ‘THALAM’. NOW ACTUALLY I WANTED TO LEARN THE ‘THALAM’ CONCEPT FROM ANY ONE YOU WHO KNOWS ABOUT THIS. LIFE ITSELF IS ABOUT LEARING NEW THINGS.

SO I TRIED TO ADOPT THIS METHOD (CHORDS BASED MELODY) IN FUTURE COMPOSITIONS. BUT I COULD NOT GET A MELODIOUS TUNE. FOR THAT YOU NEED HIGH AMOUNT OF CREATIVITY.

THE FACT IS THAT THERE COULD BE HUNDREDS OF BOOKS WRITTEN ABOUT COOKING. BUT YOU CANNOT COOK DELICIOUS FOOD BY READING THE BOOK ALONE. YOU NEED PRACTICE.

THE RAAGA BASED MELODIES ARE THE NORMALL METHOD ADOPTED BY SO MANY MDS BEFORE AND AFTER MSV.

BUT MSV THE ONLY MD WHO HAS ADOPTED THIS METHOD AND EXPLOTED THIS METHOD TO THE MAXIMUM LIMIT. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO MATCH FOR HIM.

WE ARE ALWAYS OBSESSED WITH THE CONCEPT OF RAAGA WHEN EVER WE TRY TO EXPRESS OUR MUSIC SENCE. THE RAAGA CONCEPT IS THE EXPRESSION OF OUR MUSIC CULTURE. BUT MSV THOUGH INTIALLY STARTED COMPOSING IN THIS METHOD EVALOVED HIMSELF TO THE WORLD MUSIC. YOU CAN NOTICE HE HAS COMPOSED MANY SONGS IN DIFFERENT WORLD MUSIC STYLES

RUSSIAN – KANN PONA POKKILE KAAL POGALAMA
LATIN - YAAR ANDHA NILAVU
WESTERN – (LOT OF SONGS) MALAR ENDRA MUGAM ONDRU SIRIKKATUM.
PERSIAN -NINATHEN VANDHAI,PAVALA KODIYILE MUTHUKKAL POOTHAL
EGYPTIAN – PATTATHU RANI
ARABIC – ALLAH ALLAH NI YILLADHA IDME ILLAI
JAPAN - BANSAYI KADAL PARAVAIGAL
GAZAL - VIDIYA VIDIYA SOLLI THARUVEN. (GAZAL THOUGH EXTENSIVELY USED IN INDIA IT EVALOVED BECAUSE OF THE MIXTURE OF PERSIAN AND HINDUSTANI MUSIC DURING MOGUL EMPIRE.


COMING BACK TO MALLIGAI EN MANNAN MAYANGUM,

THE OTHER IMPORATANT SUCCESS OF THIS SONG IS THE WAY IN WHICH SRMT VANI JAYARAM HAS SUNG. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO SING THIS SONGS BECAUSE THERE ARE LOT OF SANGADHIS. BEING HER FIRST INDRODUCTION TO TFM SHE HAD RENDERED A BRILLANT PERFORMANCE. THE BEST WAY TO EXPRESS MY EMOTIONS TO HER WOULD BE TO OFFER A ‘SHASTANGA NAMASKARAM’.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COMPOSER FOR CREATING THIS MASTER PIECE MELODY. KANNADASAN ONCE SAID IN A SONG ‘PIRINDHAVAR MEENDUM SERNDHIRUNDAL AZHUADAL KONJAM NIMMADHI’.
HOW CAN I EXPRESS MY EMOTION WHEN I FIRST SUCSSESSFULLY PLAYED THIS SONGS AND UNDERSTOOD THIS GENIOUS OF THIS COMPOSITON. I COULD ONLY CRY.

SEE YOU AGAIN

N Y MURALI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
sriramp
Enthusiant


Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Murali,

Great writing and analysis on MSV, may be professor should take this entire posting as is in his new book . I don't know anything about music but your writing about chords and raaga is certainly an understandable perspective about MSV's genious.

We should also translate and read out this article to MSV. I am extremely glad that many new faces have made this forum even more exiting.

Thanks for giving me an oppurtunity to understand the work involved in MSV's songs. Please continue to post.

--Sriram
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Damodaran Pachaiappan
The Ardent


Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 119
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Murali,

I can remember the bustle this song created among music analysts of the day. Mr.Subbudu ( the critic ) once wrote in a weekly that he could never tell which raga this song was based upon. He heaped praise on Mellisai Maamannar for his creativity. I don't remember the exact words. He described this as the best film song that he had ever heard. He later changed his mind when our Legend produced Vaan Nila, Nila Alla and appreciated it greatly.

I always felt that there was "Non-Indian" ( or western ) hue or 'feel' to this song but I never dared to mention it before. But from what you describe, only Sangeetha Saraswathy MSV can come up with a composition that is beyond the grasp of other mortals. No wonder people are still trying to identify the 'raagam' of this song.

This is heart rending melody. Vani Jayaram has, of course, done justice to this song and she is never tired of speaking highly of our Master.

By the way, the song "I will song for you" is featured in the film 'Manitharul Manikam' in which Nadigar Thilagam plays a guest role.

Thanks for your wonderful analysis and keep it coming.

Regards
_________________
Dr.Damodaran Pachaiappan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
N Y MURALI
Maniac


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR Mr. SRIRAM

THANKS FOR YR REPLY. IN FACT I WANT TO WRITE A RESEARCH ABOUT MSV COMPOSING STYLE. BUT I DO NOT WANT TO RUSH. I NEED OPINION FROM THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT WETSREN MUSIC, CARNATIC AND OTEHRS. I THINK ONE Mr. CHAKRAVARTHY KNOWS THE WESTERN. OUR MODERATOR RAM ALSO GIVES LOT OF INPUTS ABOUT HIS WESTERN STYLE. IT WOULD BE PROPER ONLY AFTER DISC WITH OTHERS THEN WE CAN SHOW IT TO MSV. BY THE WAY WHAT IS THE BOOK? WHO IS COMPILING ? ACCHA ONE MORE INFO I NEED FROM WHERE IS RAJARAJAN PATHIPAGAM. CAN YOU PROVIDE THE TEL NO AND ADDRESS. I WANT TO BUY THE BOOK ABOUT MSV.

ALSO THANKS TO DR DAMODAR PACHIAPPAN FOR MENTIONING THE NAME OF THE MOVIE.

REG

N Y MURALI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Damodaran Pachaiappan
The Ardent


Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 119
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Murali,

The address of Rajarajan Pathipagam is:

19 Kannadasan Salai
T.Nagar,
Chennai 600 017.

But I bought the Biography of MSV by Raani Maindan at Higginbothams on Mount Road during a one day trip to Madras. Excellent value at Rs.125/-

In fact as I was about to board the plane, I received a call from Landmark that they had the book too.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards
_________________
Dr.Damodaran Pachaiappan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
sriramp
Enthusiant


Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Murali,

I bought the Mellisai Mannargal five CD collection (saregama) from Lakshman Sruthi in Ashok Nagar more than an year back. I found many copies of the book on MSV on their upstairs book store.

Lakshman Sruthi Musicals
#72
2nd Avenue
Ashok Nagar
Chennai-600083
Phone: 044-24718080

There was one ravilsr who posted many articles on MSV raga analysis in this forum, I think you would find lot of info from him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
s.r.sankaranarayanan
Aficionado


Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 80
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR NY MURALI,

READ YOUR POSTS WITH ATTENTION.I AM REALLY IMPRESSED WITH THE FOCUS WITH WHICH YOU HAVE SET OUT TO DISCERN MSV,S COMPOSITIONAL METHOD.IN FACT,LOT OF GUYS IN THE FORUM HAVE TRIED TO DISSECT THIS IN MULTIVARIOUS PERSPECTIVES AND AND THE MAGIC THEORY OF HIS EVERYTHING IS AS ELUSIVE AS THE UNIFIED FIELD THEORY OF COSMOLOGY.LOT OF QUESTIONS WILL REMAIN UNANSWERED IF ONE TRIES TO DEFINE HIM WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF CHORD PROGRESSIONS.BECAUSE IN WESTRN COMPOSITIONS,MELODIES ARE COMPOSED SIMPLY AS ASSEMBLAGES OF CHORDS AND THIS IS A GROUND RULE.THIS IS QUITE FUNDAMENTAL IN MELODY COMPOSITION IN WESTERN.MAY BE,IF YOU HAVE OBSERVED A METHOD IN HIS COMPOSIONS,IT WOULD BE A FINE PERSPECTIVE/OPENING (LIKE IN CHESS)FROM WHICH ONE CAN COMPREHEND THE ENTIRE POSSIBILITY AND RANGES.I AM ALSO INTENSELY CRAVING TO KNOW THE MIND OF THIS GENIUS,BUT EQUALLY I AM CONVINCED THAT IT IS NOT QUITE FATHOMABLE IN A WAY THAT IF YOU PULL ONE STRING AND EVERYHING FALLS IN ITS PLACE.A GOOD PERSPECTIVE TO START THE EXPLORATION.
BEST WISHES AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.

S.R.SANKARANARAYANAN[/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
N Y MURALI
Maniac


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR SRIRAM & DR DP
THANKS FOR THE INFO ABOUT THE BOOK.

DEAR Mr. S R SHANKARANARAYANAN

I AGRRE WITH YOU. THE MORE WE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE GENIOUS OF MSV WE GET NEWER THINGS. AS I FAR AS I KNOW HE SEEMS TO HAVE DEVELOPED 3 DISTINCT STYLE IN HIS CAREER. FROM 1952 UPTO 1960 I THINK HE ADOPTED A STYLE WHICH WAS COMMON. HE GAVE US MANY BRILLIANT SONGS LIKE 'SENTHAMIZH THENMOZHIYAAL'. THEN COMES A SUDDEN CHANGE FROM PALUM PAZHAMUM AND MOST OF THE SONGS IN THE 'PA' SERIES HE SCALED EVEN GRETER EXTENT IN THIS STYLE. THEN AGAIN FROM 1970S HE AGAIN ADDED ONE MORE CONCEPT OF PURE RAAGA BASED MELODIES BUT WITH HIS NEW ORCHESTRATION. EXAMPLE IS THE SONGS 'KADAL KADLA ENDRU PESA' FROM UTHARAVINDRI ULLE VAA' IS BASED PURELY ON A RAAGA CALLED 'MADUVANTHI' AND HE USED THE SAME RAAGA FOR 'HELLO MY DEAR WRONG NUMBER' IN 'MANMADHA LEELAI' , AND 'AMMANAI AZHAGU MIGUM KANAMANAI' IN THE MOVIE 'AVAN ORU SARITHIRAM'. HE ALSO USED A VERY RARE RAAGA UN TFM CALLED 'KUNDALAVARALI' IN THE SONG 'RAJA VADA SINGA KUTTI RANI VADI THANGA KATTI' IN 'THISAI MARIYA PARAVAIGAL.

I AM NOT WELL VERSED IN WESTERN MUSIC AND HENCE NOT ABLE TO ADD MORE INFO WHEN I MENTIONED MY POSTING ABOUT HIS COMPOSITION. MAY SOME FREINDS IN THE SITE CAN HELP AND WE CAN REFINE THE WHOLE CONCEPT SO THAT IT COULD BE USED FOR FUTURE GENERATION TO USE IN THEIR COMPOSING. THE STYLE WHICH I MENTIONED THOUGH WAS A WESTERN CONCEPT USED BY HIM THE END PRODUCT WHICH HE DELIVERED WAS INDIAN STYLE MELODY. THAT SHOULD BE THE REASON THAT HIS SONGS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING EVER GREEN.

THANKS

N Y MURALI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Vatsan
The Fervent


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Resp Reply with quote

NY Murali, good post. But I do differ with respect to certain observations of yours. Going by my gut instincts, what drives a typical MSV tune would be a mix of absence of shackles, absence of rules, being instinctive, being aesthetics driven etc. Being very instinctive, he may have allowed a chord idea to flow in at times or simply introduced a minor note in an otherwise 'major' flow, we do not know. He may have not have thought of the chord first all the time. The example I thought of just now was the prelude of 'engirunthO AsaigaL'....the accordian, violin dialogue and a sudden plunge into the 'minor' territory before the "double" sitar offers the prompt for the pallavi. I feel that MSV introduced this deviation in the prelude piece to simply experiment with unchartered territories at the same time maintaining the tastefulness. I believe that in this case, the chord was not the driving force. To sum it all up, it could be a mix of everything, using a note that he felt was appropriate or following a chord he thought would add another dimension to the song. He renders himself open to all ideas while composing.

Your observations are all very original and interesting , especially with respect to a conspicuous change in style in the 70s where I thought his melodies became more sangathi heavy and gamaks heavy (this is not a bashing by the way) but still continued to retain the ability to flow into the unexpected. Even the very famous 'kamban EmAnthAn' (1978) has this very palpable dip into the unexpected in the charanams in the melody negotiating line at 'arunjuvai pAl' ....a sangathi heavy number. Here , I believe too, the deviation is melody driven and not chord driven.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
N Y MURALI
Maniac


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR Mr. VATSAN
THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS. BUT I STILL BELIEVE HE MUST BE HAVING A METHOD TO PRODUCE A MELODY. IT CANNOT FLOW FROM NOWHERE. BUT I ALSO WISH TO SAY THAT EVEN THOUGH HE COMPOSED SONGS IN THIS STYLE FROM 60S STILL HE RETAINED THE STYLE HE ADOPTED BEFORE 60S AND STILLE CAME UP WITH ONE MORE STYLE DURING 70S THE DETAILS OF WHICH I HAVE PROVIDED IN MY REPLY TO Mr. S R SANKARANANARAYANAN. SO HE HAS USED ALL THESE METHOD DEPENDING ON SITUATIONS. FOR INSTANCE HE COULD NOT HAVE USED THE CHORD BASED MELODIES FOR A SITUATION LIKE 'MADAVI PON MAYILAL '. BUT STILL I RESERVE MY OBSERVATION AND THE BEST POSSIBLE THIING FOR US IS TO MEET LIKEMINDED PEOPLE IN THIS SITE WHO WANTS TO KNOW AND ANALYSIE HIS COMPOSING STLYE. WHY NOT WE ALL MEET AT SOME POINT OF TIME AND SIT LEISURELY AND DISCUSS IN PERSON. IF ANY OTEHR PEOPLE WHOM SEE THIS CAN JOIN. I CAN BRING MY KEYBOARD AND SHARE MY INFOR WITH OTHERS. MY CELL NO IS 98409 08843. IF YOU ARE INTERSTED PL CALL. WE CAN ALL DISCUSS AND COME TO SOME CONCLUSION AFTER THROUGH ANALYSING. MAY BE Mr. RAMKI AND Mr. VAIDY CAN ARRANGE THE MEETING.

REG YOU SONG 'ENGIRUNDHO ASAIGAL' AND 'KAMBAN EMANDHAN' I WANT TO STUDY AND COME BACK TO YOU

REGARDS

N Y MURALI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
tvvraghavan
The Ardent


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Murali,
What a Candid delineation of this great song. As always said,his composing style always remains a mystery and would always remain a topic of discussion and debate. Am sure this would continue for all generations to come.

Well, one of his composing styles is the manner in which he surfaces and connects charanam back to the pallavi as found in this song. He would typically use a pattern or tune that would be brought at the end of the charanam to connect it to the pallavi. Another fascinating facet of his compositions are the interludes and preludes that actually blend so well with the song.

Brilliant post again.

When talking about "Dharmavathi", I believe the Master must have got so fond of this raga during the 70s and especially while doing the movie "Uthravindri Ulley Vaa". Even the title song "Utharavindri Ulley Vaa" which is a beautiful western and light music fusion has a pure classical "bit" as one of the charanams rendered by TMS for Nagesh which I believe is based on the raaga "Dharmavathi". The most beautiful aspect of the song is the way in which the pure classical charanam would retrace and fuse back to the pallavi in a totally different style. Mr. TMS would have done a tremendous job in showing the difference.

As mentioned before , the song "Kadhal Kadhal Endru Pesa" is also composed on the same raaga which is another example of master's boundless creativity and value for aesthetics.

Thanks for the oppurtunity.

MSV Rules !!!
Venkat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
N Y MURALI
Maniac


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 920
Location: CHENNAI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR Mr. VENKAT,

THANKS. THE SONG 'UTHARAVIDRI ULLE VAA' IS A VERY UNIQUE SONG IN TERMS OF RAAGA ANALYSIS. AS I MENTIONED EARLIER MSV HAD USED HIS COMP STYLE ON RAAGA BASED. THE BEAUTY OF THIS SONG IS THAT THE PALLAVI IS IN RAAGA 'SIVARANCHANI'. ANOTHER GREAT INFO ABOUT THIS RAAGA IS THAT SIVARANCHANI WAS ALWAYS USED ONLY FOR SORROW SITUATIONS. BUT OUR MASTER HAS BROKEN THAT MYTH AND HE COMPOSED IT FOR JOLLY SITUATION.

THE GENERAL NOTES THAT COME IN TO SIVARANCHANI ARE 'SA', RI2', 'GA1', 'PA', 'DA2', 'SA,.

THE GENERAL TRADITION IN CINE MUSIC IS TO MIX 'GA2' WITH SIVARANCHANI AND PRODUCE VARIATION. EXAMPLE 'TERE MERE BEECHU ME' HINDI SONG IN 'EK TUJE KE LIYE'

COMING BACK TO OUR SONG WHILE YOU FINISHED HEARING THE PALLAVI AND COMES TO A CONCLUSION OF THE RAAGA A SURPRISE IS AWATING IN THE 1ST CHARANAM SUNG BY LRE. THE MASTER MIXES 'NI1' AND NOT 'GA2' AS TRADITIONALY PRODUCED. SO THE FIRST CHARANAM IS OVER.

THE PALLVAI AND THE FIRST CHARANAM ARE ALL IN WESTERN STYLE.

THEN COMES THE TMS (NAGESH) PART WHICH IS PURE SIVARANCHANI. THERE IS NO MIX OF ANY NEW FORIEGN SWARAM. WHY? THE REASON COULD BE THAT IT IS RENDERED IN PURE CARNATIC STYLE. THUS GOES THE 2ND CHARANAM. THE BEST PART OF THIS SONG IS WHEN TMS CONNECTS THE CHARANAM TO THE PALLAVI. BOTH OF ARE IN SAME SIVARANCHANI RAAGA. BUT THE WAY IN WHICH HE CONNECTS IS ENCHANTING. FROM THE CARNATIC STYLE WITH LITTLE EASE HE GOES TO THE WESTERN STYLE. THIS IS MASTER PIECE OF COMPOSING AND SINGING. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HEAR TMS GIVING PRESSURE OF HIS VOICE WHEN HE SPELLS THE STARTING OF THE PALLVI AS 'UTHARAVINDRI ULLE VVVAA
YOU CAN SENSE THE STYLE CHANGE.

IN THE 3RD CHARANAM RENDERED BY SPB AND LRE THERE STILL MORE SURPRISE. AGAIN HE GOES BACK TO THE WESTERN STYLE. THIS TIME HE MIXES THE SWARAM 'NI1' WHICH HAS USED IN CHARANAM 1 BUT ALSO MIXES 'MA1' WHICH GIVES A TOTALLY DIFFERENT COLOUR.

SO IN THIS SENSE IT ITS AS SUPERB SONG. THERE IS NO EQUAL REFERENCE IN ANY OTHER SONGS FOR THE ASPECT I MENTIONED ABOVE.

ACTUALLY I WANTED TO WRITE A NEW TOPIC FOR THIS SONG. BUT ONCE I SAW YOUR REPLY ABOUT THIS SONG THEN I COULD NOT RESIST MYSELF

THANKS

N Y MURALI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
VaidyMSV & Sriram Lax
Maniac


Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 852
Location: chennai

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dear murali

We love your posts as much we love MAster's music .
great write ups.

dear dr DP

subbudu wanted the raga of Malligai en mannan Mayangum is to be named after the master and to be named VISHWANTHAPRIYA .he also identified the blend of 2 raagas , which was masterly done
that article in idayam pesugirathu had many good things about the genius
thanks
_________________
vijayakrishnan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tvvraghavan
The Ardent


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
THEN COMES THE TMS (NAGESH) PART WHICH IS PURE SIVARANCHANI


Dear Mr.Murali
Thanks for clarifying. I got mislead by the first line that ends as "Bhoomiyil Maanida Jenmam Eduthathu Kaathali Unai Kaana.." that sounded like "Dharmavathi.." to me Surprised.

After I read your post, "Sivaranjani" was pretty much evident in the opening prelude violins that embellish the song.

MSV Rules !!!
Venkat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ram
Devotee


Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1160

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Murali,

You have taken a million dollar question as the topic. And am sure this will never be answered with a precise and clear answer, even after million years. Excellent writing and a great way to (re)present this song!

And I do concur with Vatsan's post here. As far as melody, our man MSV without a doubt, stands tallest. No pattern, no rules, on the flow, like river flow. We can never fit MSV into any pattern of melody, or a particular style of orchestration. We have tons & tons of songs and even personal videos taken by Vaidy - when MSV plays piano as a proof for this fact.

Traversing through odd notes for MSV is like getting a sugar candy while travelling in a bus. Few other composers would normally sound like a deliberate suicide attempt from a running bus, that too squeezing through the windows !!

Great article - more thoughts like this please!
_________________
Ramkumar
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    "MSV CLUB" - The Discussion Forum of MSVTimes.com Forum Index -> Pick a Song and Analyze! All times are GMT + 5.5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group