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MSVLS ROLE IN THE DUOS COMPOSITIONS
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:36 pm    Post subject: MSVLS ROLE IN THE DUOS COMPOSITIONS Reply with quote

Dear Friends,
An year back I had a heated but a healthy debate with one of the participant in the youtube. The debate started because the participant mentioned for the song 'malarndhum malaratha' that it was solely composed by TKR and MSV had no role in it. He went on to quote that many of the VR duo songs were in fact tuned, orchestrated by TKR, but he being a shy person and MSV having influence projected himself. I had to counter his arguments logically and one argument I put forward was MSV's success and TKR's failure after the duo split and we must judge from that. And we being fans may not know many information and as such judge an individual based on performance.

But he shot back saying not to bracket him in the list of fans and he himself is a music director and had done music for some of the Tamil films in 70s.

For this I replied then he should all the more give correct information. As the argument went on, in one of th e post he wanted to shut me up by saying 'do you whp I am?. I am the son of Shri B Rajam, the eminent Carnatic Singer who is the brother of the great Veenai Balachander. Music runs in our blood. So Please do not argue". His name is Ramamurhty. I replied him that he could be so and so but that does not give him any privy to inside information about the duo's compositions. I also told him I as a fan who is studying MSV's music for more than 30 years and associated with msvtimes I stand a better chance of giving more authentic information than him.
Now coming to this post why I mentioned the above incident is, there are such kind of wrong informations spread by some with or without motives. And I got answer for the above from none other than Mr. Shyam Joseph during his speech in our anniversary function.
Let me tell you what Shyam told. He mnetioned that he was to have played the solo violin for the song ‘kan pona pokkile’. He mentioned that TKR was not present at that time and as MSV giving the back ground scores for the songs he also took the noteds for the solo violin piece and was practicing. After few rehearsals when they were ready to go for the take TKR came and as such Shyam considering his seniority handed over the Violin to him to play. While TKR was little hesitant, but played those notes. Shyam said later TKR presented him a violin bow may be feeling sorry for Shyam.
Now many of us know very well that MSV has the habit of composing the song’s back ground score only at the time of recording. SO each and every note of that song should have flowed from his harmonium as we know from Shyam that TKR was not present till the final take. And even when he came late and played those solo voilin pieces it was already given by MSV to shyam who was practising hard. So even those notes which TKR played solo came form MSV. Then how could Rajam’s son claim that TKR used to compose and not MSV. If one talks aboutr the western style composition then this song comes on top of the list. And this one is an ample proof.
Now Shyam gives another informations which is complete contrast to the above. He said that he was called for a song recording. When he went inside the recording room he was surprised that he was the only solo vilolinist called. The song was ‘thanga ratham vandhadhu veedhiyile’ for the movie ‘Kalai Kovil’. Shyam now decides not to take part in that recording as he was not a Carnatic style violinist but a Western style violinist and the song was completely based on Carnatic style with a raga base. So he politetly refused to play. When MSV asked him what was his problem he said that being a non carnatic violinist he is hesitant. Then MSV told Goverdhanam to write the notes of the piece which Shyam is supposed to play and thus Shyam played the solo violin.
Now these two imformation are in complete contrast to each other. While Shyam was perfectly eligible to play for the song ‘kan pona pokkile’ which us a western style song and Shyam being a Wester style Violinist yet he was also given a chance for the song ‘Thanga ratham vandhadhu’ which is a Carnatic style song.And TKR was not present for that song as Shyam says he was the only violinist there.
And both movies carry the title of duo as Viswanathan –Ramamurthy. So we get to know that during the duo’s carrier there were instances of TKR not present for some of the songs but we do not know the reason and we need not know also. But it is fact indirectly clarified by Shyam. But We have not heard even one occasion where MSV was not present for the composition,song recording or the rerecording.
Now there is another information Shyam gave. He said for a complete music director one has to have the skill of composing,arranging and conducting and MSV has all the three. Now we need to understand the above statement. There is no doubt that their name appears in the title card. But Shyam’s statement shatters that also. If MSV himself is a good arranger as well as a conductor why should he need an assistant. Few people like us know that during his prime days MSV used to to recording for 2 or 3 filims at the same time and he use to split his orchestra in to 2 or 3 groups and he used to shuttle between these groups giving them notes and asks them to practice and come for the take. So while we appreciate the playing ability of his members, but to give them the credit of creativity which came from this man’s heart is pure injustice.
I must recall the post of one of our forum member Shri Mndaveli Jayaraman, who was a witness to the re recording of the milk and steam boiling and contracting scene in the movie ‘sollathan ninaikiren’ Jayaraman wrote that the gentleman who was conducting was not able to get the timing correct as the milk and steam gets contracting, the music goes in the reverse. After few failed attempt MSV came out commenting “It is a simple music why are we getting stuck? Have I composed any Symphony?”. He then went on to conduct and thus finished the recording as told by our friend Jayaraman.
So what else proof is required ?. I know many of us in the forum had already know the answer and me being one among them, but it was the day of our 7th anniversary at which what Shyam told was a shot in the arm for us.

Thanks,

N Y Murali
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V Sivasankaran
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Murali,

Shri MSV & CV Sridhar approached S. Balachandar for playing veena. Requirement was for Kalaikovil. Sb Insisted for a larger role like scoring music and directing. Unwilling CVS and MM got the job done through Chittibabu. Chittibabu did a splendid work and kalaikovil songs continue to haunt all of us.

Experience with SB was narrated by MSV himself. Get into inbaminge.com and listent to MSV speech, which will come just before the song naan unnai serantha selvam.

Reason for Ramamurthy to love Tkr is be seen from the above mentoined facts.

V Sivasankaran
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Siva,
Yes. One is also reminded of a long debate Shri Balachander and Shri Balamurali had about the 'Maghadhi' raga of the song 'Adhisaya ragam' in a weekly magazine.

I am curiously looking for the article. Does any one have those magazine cuttings. If so please publish in our forum.

N Y Murali
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gragavan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murali Sir. Wonderful information. People who listen to MSV's songs and MSV-TKR's songs regularly know the similarities in musical vibrations. Certainly there would have been contribution from TKR. But who ran the show became evident post-split.

Thanks Shyam sir for sharing such wonderful insider information.

regards,
GiRa
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vaidymsv
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: BELATED YET STARTLING INDEED Reply with quote

Dear All,

It took many years for late TKR to come to terms and reveal to the world that it was Shri. MSV all the way behind every creation of the duo. Professional compulsions could have forced late TKR to withhold this startling revelation for so many years as earlier outbursts could have jeopardised their very relationship itself.

We have seen the path of MSV after the split between the two in 1965 and also understood where MSV had an unassailable edge over TKR. With due respects to TKR who is considered to be one of the finest violinists produced by our country and one who had a vast knowledge on Classical music, the creativity area some how eluded him and this is where MSV scored a 100% over TKR.

It was during the Vaarthaigal Sollum Vaathiyangal concert held in Sept 2008 at the Museum Theatre, late TKR revealed blatantly that his job was only to be present during the recordings and the entire construction of the song was done with absolute confidence & ease by our Master Creator MSV. May be late TKR also felt that it was long overdue to accept this fact (which would have been immpossible to accept durhing the duo's hay days....) and reveal the secrets off the screens.

But for seasoned listeners of MSV, it wasn't an arduous task to understand as to who tuned the song literally including the orchestration part. Post TKR period, MSV not only innovated but went ahead to create some of the finest songs in the annals of melodies that have made an indelible mark in our hearts in every musical sense.....

CHEERS

MSV IS MELODY!!!

VAIDYMSV

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madhuraman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Articles and writings Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Vaidy and other friends
There can be no second opinion on what Mr Vaidy had posted a number of times and in his latest edition citing post 1965.
The inexplicable dilemma [then doing rounds in TN especially in College campuses] was compounded by a couple of events. Right after the duo's segregation, a few movies appeared with TKR as the MD. But, none of those 2 0r 3 movies revealed anything of acceptable class.

The 'dilemma', I am referring to was because those few TKR MOVIES came from the stable of A.Bhimsingh. If Bhimsingh had a powerful movie image from 'PA' series, it was all due to songs. When that gentleman chose to have [V] R, in the then mystery of cinema where the media did precious little to trace any grapevine, the youngsters were TEMPORARILY led to think of R over V. But the whole thing was emphatically torpedoed when NEE and KalangaraiviLakkam hit the screens.

Of course, it was AnbE vA, which took the industry by storm and any one wavering of the supremacy between V and R sealed the idea once for all. Thereafter, neither MSV nor his admirers had anything left to establish any claim.

The subsequent happenings are all part of History that needs no reiteration. Why I recall these is, in our hostels 1965 [Annamalai University] heated arguments filled the air with noisy barks taking sides for V and R, friendship taking a back seat.

Since it was a fight based on wrong assumptions, none had any reservations in acknowledging MSV's rightful supremacy and all became more thick friends thanks to Nee, K ViLakkam and AnbEvA.

Thanks for the opportunity
Warm regards K.Raman Madurai
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S.Balaji
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Vaidy , there is a clear difference to something like Karnan, Pudhiya paravai, Kalai kovil, Aayirathil oruvan etc.....( prior to the split )

and

MSV solo....

The orchestration in particular .......

Melody was and is always with MSV

I wish we put an end to such debates which MSV only will feel hurt as he has the highest regards for TKR and despite their long differences, both came back together to display their affection and friendship.
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vaidymsv
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: MSV - THE KING MAKER Reply with quote

Dear All,

The writings that have appeared here do not demean TKR in anyway as portrayed by a prolific writer. Whether it was post 1965 or the 50's, TKR very clearly enlightened the world that his part was only to conduct certain sections in the orchestra and literally putting to rest all other arguements. The 50's also had MSV in the very lead role ably assisted by TKR. The post 1965 scenario is nothing but a new pattern of music MSV innovated which he has been doing from the 50's itself. So this is not an arguement or a controversy as is being portrayed by certain people.

The hardcore MSV rasikas have no issues in calling a spade a spade and this is where we feel the creativity aspect of MSV was, is and will ever be far far superior to anyone else in the tinsel world and there shall be no doubts in the minds of the right thinking people....

CHEERS

MSV IS MELODY!!!

VAIDYMSV

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VaidyMSV & Sriram Lax
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dear balaji

while i understand your concern not to Demean , TKR, i agree with vaidy that we should come with the facts especially when MSV is not credited his due .

Unfortunately , MSV is not opening up with what happened , we need to draw conclusions based on what we hear from those who watched the DUO in action . and all leads to MSV as composer . it does not take away TKR's credentials as an composer but question is his contribution in duos composition and arrangement .

i think this is important point to discuss as many fans ask this question repeatedly .
but i admit we should be cautious enough not to cross lakshman reka (including to MSV's hard core fans -vaidy and murali and scores of others )

regards
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Friends,
Thanks for the informative post that appears in this thread. As a connoisseur and a fan especially of a music director one need not worry about what it might make the person feel good or bad. What is important is to unearth the facts as facts without any bias. With all due regards to Shri Ramamoorthy, these are the facts that emerge and that does not mean we keep in low esteem. As an MSV fan, like MSV we also respect Shri TKR.

And personally I shall if required will criticize the work of MSV also if in case I feel that it is not up to the mark which I expect from MSV.

Why I choose to write this is that there are some opinion that are being floated in other website like youtube where in wrong information are spread.

I recall what happened in Mega TV 'Endrum MSV'. for the song 'Aadaadha manamum undo' when he was asked how he composed, he told not to forget his fellow MD Shri Ramamoorthy. So we get the lead as to TKR did contribute for that Classical piece.

N Y Murali
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also of the firm opinion that "Pre split melody and orchestration and post split melody and orchestration are very different' is some thing not true and most likely a hang over feeling.

Even if one think so it has got nothing to do with TKR leaving but primarily many musicians like Philip, Shyam, Mangalamurthy etc. Noel was temporarily absent but returned back soon.

This happened during 'Kudiyirundha koyil'. So we need to closely monitor those pre kudiyirundha kovil and post kudiyirundha kovil.

I wish to make a very long article in this aspect.

Let time come. I shall do it.

N Y Murali
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parthavi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, the issue (which has been settled since long in the minds of people who have been listening to the compositions of VR, MSV and TKR.) has been raked up in more than one forum by one or two people bent upon attributing the excellence of the duo to TKR and only TKR.

Apart from the debate in the youtube in which NY Murali had participated, there was also a debate in the website for TKR so graciously set up by our Raghavendran. One gentleman made a post to the effect that the entire VR creation was only TKR's and MSV got the credit because he kept good relations with the producers, directors etc. He even claimed that his statement was backed by the statements of some musicians who worked with the duo though he said he couldn't reveal their identity.

When I countered this claim by citing the record of each after separation, he said MSV's popular numbers were either copied from Hindi tunes or were the creations of his assistants like Govardhanam and Henry Daniel. So, according to him, all of VR's creations were the work of TKR and all of MSV's individual creations were either created by others or were copied. The orchestra also went with MSV! I pointed out to him the absurdity of his statement.

About TKR's solo compositions failing to match those of the duo, he said age had caught up with TKR and said that after some years, MSV's compositions were also affected by his becoming old. Our debate continued for several rounds with a couple of others also butting in. Finally, one gentleman referred to the youtube video of TKR's rendering of Sahana on violin and pointed out that though TKR had the freedom on this piece, he did not do anything creative and just stuck to the traditional notes. He said this was proof that the creative work should have largely been the result of MSV's efforts.

I wanted to give the link but I am unable to find the site now. Perhaps Sri Raghavendran, the creator of the site, can help.

As Mr. Vaidhy has pointed out, TKR had said clearly during the VaarththikaL sollum VaadhdhiyangaL program that he just remained by the side of MSV. Listening to him, we can see that he was not just being humble but was trying to be truthful. He had also said in his interview to the Hindu and Vijay TV that when MSV proposed the idea of pairing up like Shankar-Jailishan, while returning home after watching a Hindi movie, TKR's immediate response was that he would prefer to work under MSV. He also once said that when the two were working under CR Subbaraman, MSV would give him intricate notes to play on violin and TKR would say, 'Even at this young age, you are able to compose such intricate notes!'

The taste of the pudding is in the eating. TKR had ample opportunities to prove his composing skills. With due respects to this talented musician, I would like to say that he has not created even one song that can be compared to VR's songs.

Even in songs based on Carnatic ragas, MSV has created songs like isai kettaal puvi asainthaatum, maadhavip pon mayilaaL etc which are far ahead of TKR's supposedly best creation 'vasantha kaalam varumo.'

While VR songs had elaborate and innovative orchestration by way of preludes and interludes, TKR used orchestra very sparingly. He has not produced outstanding violin notes either.

People with good knowledge of music can compare the structures of VR songs and MSV songs and can find similarities. Such similarities may not be there between VR's and TKR's songs.

Like Mr. Balaji, I have also felt that VR songs of 1960-65 have a divine quality that is so unique that these songs would be above MSV's creations. This has been intriguing me for long. But now I feel that MSV (VR) reached a peak in 1960-65 and so these songs stand out. Mr. Thumba Sekar once said that the patterns of songs have changed with the changes in story lines of films. After all, we didn't have the kinds of family dramas we witnessed in the 1960-65 subsequently. MSV also seems to have expanded his horizon with new experiments.

So, I think we respect TKR as having been a part of the VR pair but if some people try to belittle MSV's contribution in an attempt to glorify TKR, we need to put the record straight.
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MSV, Un isai kettaal puvi asainthaadum, idhu iraivan arul aagum.
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vaidymsv
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: WELL BALANCED Reply with quote

Dear All,

Parthavi's observations are well balanced & gave an absolute logical conclusion. Post VR split, why wasn't TKR able to make any impact if he was considered or should I say protrayed to be a creator on par with MSV? We have listened to almost all that rolled out of TKR school and nothing could match or come near the ones that rolled out of MSV's school. As I had written earlier, MSV's creativity is what that kept TKR engaged and but for this, TKR's very existence could have been challenged by many. The claims attributing TKR as the lead creator could be from some vested interests.

Those who have understood the music of MSV clearly know where the melodies orginated from. We need not prove it to anyone. MSV-TKR combination probably was established only with the thought of a look alike of a Shankar-Jaikishen. When TKR himself has admitted and cleared all the doubts from the minds of the people, it is strange that some people indulge in spreading questionable inferences....

CHEERS

MSV IS MELODY!!!

VAIDYMSV

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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Forum Members,

I wish to bring it to your attention of one particular information. There is a movie called 'Magane Kel' which was released in the year 1965 post VR split.
If you hear the songs you would notice sea of difference in the style of composition and orchestration. The truth is this was composed and recordered in the late 50s by the duo, and hence before split but was released after the split and the music credit is given to MSV only in the title.

It is also interesting that in the youtube people give credit to TKR and the reason they attribute is that there is a song sung by A M Raja 'Unnai paartha kangal rendum ponnai paarthu pazhikkudhu'. They say that A M Raja could never have sung the song composed by MSV as they already had misunderstanding in the movie 'Jenova' itself.

I read some where that with advocate B Raman the duo settled their split and one of the point was how to treat the unreleased movies. This could be one of that.

N Y Murali
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parthavi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A.M. Raja had sung 'kan moodum velaiyilum' for Mahadevi and 'thingal urangiya podhum' for Petra makanai vitra annai, both with music composition by VR. Of course, come people may argue that only TKR was involved in composing and recording these songs! But MSV has mentioned in his introduction to one of these two songs in hummaa.com "before becoming a music director, AMR has sung for us." However, for some reason VR has not used AMR much though he was a skilled singer with a pleasing voice.
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MSV, Un isai kettaal puvi asainthaadum, idhu iraivan arul aagum.
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