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MSVLS ROLE IN THE DUOS COMPOSITIONS
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact in the you tube discussion the people who were talking for TKR mentioned that it was A M Raja who introduced MSV to Ecchapan, the producer of 'Jenova'. They claimed that MSV once told in a Radio Programme of Ceylon in 1989. They also claimed that but for AMR, MSV would never have made as a MD.

I countered their claim that it was not A M Raja, but one Mr. S M Raja, the friend of MSV who worked with him as a co harmonium player, when both were working in Tiruchi, with Vairam Chettiar. This is clearly mentioned in MSV'S biography. This debate went on and I said what is authentic is the one what MSV mentioned in his Biography and wanted them to provide the proof contrary to that. Till date nothing came from their side.


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S.Balaji
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N Y MURALI wrote:
I also of the firm opinion that "Pre split melody and orchestration and post split melody and orchestration are very different' is some thing not true and most likely a hang over feeling.

Even if one think so it has got nothing to do with TKR leaving but primarily many musicians like Philip, Shyam, Mangalamurthy etc. Noel was temporarily absent but returned back soon.

This happened during 'Kudiyirundha koyil'. So we need to closely monitor those pre kudiyirundha kovil and post kudiyirundha kovil.

I wish to make a very long article in this aspect.

Let time come. I shall do it.

N Y Murali



Dear All,

There is an uniqueness in VR's music which is distinctly visible and apparent. For this, do we have any rational explanation to offer ?


Both, after the split, had adopted a different style though the same class was identifiable in movies like Kuzandhayum deivamum, Panchavarnakili, Kalangarai vilakkam to name a few.... soon, a different genre of music was served by MSV going forward...

After a certain period, unfortunately TKR couldnt sustain and faded while MSV can still do wonders ! ( that recent recording of TTDC is a proof ).

Its a well known ( established ) fact that MSV often was the one who composed or set the basic tune for which TKR used to play the same on the Violin for any improvisation....

There are some examples which we could hear from MSV himself like :

Pon enben - A visibly irritated Kavignar( for having written a series of monotonous love songs ) had to be cajoled by Sridhar and MSV that this situation is something different...... Here MSV provides the tune.....

Kodi asaindhadhum - MSV asking a question to Kavignar with a tune and Kavignar inturn responding with lyrics ....Again, tune being set by MSV...

There are many such...


But, having said thus, the songs of the duo are something special which noone can match today....Let us give credit to both for the success .....

Whether TKR succeeded or not post the split is immaterial ....

There is a stamp of class in the compositions up to the split ....Lets admire that special quality in those songs and enjoy ......
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vaidymsv
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: AROUND THE WORLD WITHOUT A PASSPORT Reply with quote

Dear All,

The musical wonder MSV's overseas jaunts were ultimately restricted to the studios in Chennai than any exotic locations. Take for example movies released between 1965 to 1980 - Sivantha Mann, Ulagam Sutrum Vaaliban, Orey Vaanam Orey Bhoomi, Varuvaan Vadivelan and Ninaithaley Inikkum... Can anyone point out any similarity in the musical creation than one common factor that most of the movie sequences were shot abroad?

Imagine what could have happened to all these movies with other MDs??? For example, Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan was originally roped in by MGR to do USV. Thank heavens....but for MSV all these movies would have pushed the producers into their lifetime debts.

The most important inference I would like to draw here is that all these movies without TKR virtually became musical monuments in the annals of the tinsel world. The varieties unleashed by this Master Creator was simply overwhelming and till today there is no one who could ever come near his imagination. Last but not the least, though MSV was stay put inside 4 walls, he made sure that all of us travelled the globe without even the very basic document called "passport" just by listening to those songs....

CHEERS

MSV IS MELODY!!!

VAIDYMSV

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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Balaji wrote

Quote:
There is an uniqueness in VR's music which is distinctly visible and apparent. For this, do we have any rational explanation to offer ?



Dear Mr. Balaji,
What we are making here is a healthy argument and not showing any skill whether you know or I know better. With that in mind I need to point out to you that even during VR times there is a pre-pudhayal(movie) and post-pudhayal composing and orchestrating style. I hope as a very senior person you may be aware but many of the people in this forum itself may not even heard many of VR compositions fo the movies like Needhipathi(song vandhadhadi rajayogam where in they have employed number of violins and chorus singing), Porter Kandhan(a train song 'varundhadhe maname which will tell you that MSV carries the same trait even after the split in many train songs), Vairamalai (a song 'vanchamidho vaanchaiyidho' and other song 'koovaamal koovidum kogilam') and many others. All the above songs are not historical or Puranic movies but were social stories. We see a ocean of difference between these songs and the songs that came from the movie 'pudhayal'. Of course the movie 'paava mannippu' was the turning point as MSV said that they had adapted a new style with his famous quote 'pazhamai maaradha pudumai'.

Mr. Balaji wrote

I
Quote:
ts a well known ( established ) fact that MSV often was the one who composed or set the basic tune for which TKR used to play the same on the Violin for any improvisation....


My point is what improvisation did TKR do? Actually I have also heard that in those days TKR used to play a raga and MSV would compose a tune on the same. But I feel that it pertains to the period prior to movie 'paava mannippu' from there onward MSV adapted his new style which is light music (mellisai) for which Harmony is the essence for the tune and orchestration.

If you see Mr. Shyam's speech he talks about MSV's skill in harmony. To quote him verbatim in Tamil 'nangalellam harmony theory padichuttu vandhom. aanaal avarukku iyarkaiyaagave andha thiramai irumndhadhu. Solla ponaal aandavan avarukku konjam adhigamaagave andha thiramaiyai koduthivittan'

So my point is that ever since MSV started the new trend which is composing and orchestrating based on harmony, TKR had no role to play then onward. It is that feeling which could have made him feel that he had no role to play from now onward. I am sorry but I have to call a spade a spade but unfortunately that is the fact.

I am asking one basic question. If Sankar-Ganesh could do nearly 250 films, Shyam could do 300 films(all worked with MSV) why not TKR? The reason is TKR himself is an unwilling composer.

And remember through out the year in 1964 TKR was absent for some of the recordings as proved by many veteran's speech. We get to know from Shyam that he was not present in the song 'Kan pona pokkile' and for the movie 'Kalai Kovil'. In the same year 'server sundaram' was released. We find him absent for the filmed song 'avalukkenna'. And he did not go to Bangalore for the epic composition of 'Karnan'. And his absence in 'Ayirathil oruvan' is a know fact. Now from the above list we would notice these were from the top notches from VR duo and if TKR was not even present what improvisation he could have provided.

While many of us know MSV's passion for using Hindustani instruments like Sarangi. Sarod, Tar Shenai, Santoor etc. While we notice Sarangi pieces being used in the song 'anbu manan kanindha pinne', 'manithan enbavan deivamaagalaam', 'Yaar andha nilavu' in the duo composition, We also see MSV using the same even after the split. But why did not TKR. He could have used at least for the song 'vasantha kaalam varumo' which is based on the Hindustani raaga 'Kalaavathi'.

So in effect what I am trying to say is that while we may appreciate that VR songs are top graded there is nothing to suggest that TKR had any role in that. It was MSV all alone.

But I do agree with your point that while the movie title itself gives the credit to both of them so in effect both have the right to claim. But why I countered the point was there were many who wrote the exact opposite of the fact.

But once we start digging we may face some un comfortable situations especially more against TKR than against MSV.



N Y Murali
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parthavi
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years back, I have heard TMS mention in a TV interview that TKR would play the Melakarta raagaas on the violin and MSV would create tunes based on them. As Murali said, this might have been in the earlier period or only for songs based on Carnatic raagaas. TMS' statement shows that the improvisation was on the part of MSV and that he had only made use of TKR's proficiency in Carnatic raagaas.

While talking about songs composed by him in the VR era (in the Endrum MSV and other programs), MSV would mostly say 'I.' This was not due to lack of humility or the intention to ignore TKR. This was spontaneous arising from his memories. Since he only did most of the job, he remembers it that way. But sometimes he will say 'we.' We can see that he was deliberately using the word 'we' with the intention of giving credit to TKR for the sake of courtesy and consideration for the man.
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vaidymsv
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:07 am    Post subject: A NEW GENRE OF MUSIC Reply with quote

Dear All,

While many have written their point of view which is very well taken, yet another factor that has to be brought to the forum is that, traditionally most of the yesteryear MD's completely depended on the classical music to score for films and this includes all the who's who we can think of. But, it was this sheer innovator called MSV who deviated from this culture and had the guts to introduce a new genre of music that transcended all barriers laid down by the classical music & it's grammar. People like Semmangudi, MS, MLV were awestruck at the pinnacle of imagination of this giant called MSV. They even welcomed this change whole heartedly (some possibly with some reluctance inside for obvious reasons but the majority never failed to take notice of this little giant)...

If at all people like me who are absolutely illeterate in classical music are able to distinguish between a melody and a malady, the entire credit goes to MSV for having educated us to this level. With the raaga based composing culture slowly becoming obsolete, the new pattern of music that MSV innovated heralded a new dawn in the horizons of film music. Those with mediocre imagination are still surviving because of the raaga based music is another point and we all know as to what level this music has impressed us. But if one looked at the creative aspect of it, then everything will vanish leaving only MSV's music in the limelight.

Many of the yesteryear composers blatantly accepted that with the grand arrival of Karnan and followed by many movies where music played the dominant role, it was curtains down for many. MSV's music not only set the mood & trend to it's highest level but also ensured that it was the melody content, situations, voice selection, orchestration, lyrics and most importantly the emotional aspect that received it's best attention. I don't think any one else really gave film music to it's perfect completion in this world than MSV and this is where HE stands TALLLLLLLLLL amongst others!!!

If at all anyone set a real trend then it ought to be MSV only and no one else. Why is that even today those who want quality music still consider MSV as their only option? While there are many in the industry, it was MSV who could ultimately create an indelible mark in our hearts with his new wave genre of music that till today virtually rules the roost. All those who traveled with him faded away unable to match his creativity while those who survived made most money than any note worthy music.

To us, the hardcore devotees of Our Master's Music, true integration of all of us in this forum happened only because of his music. Isn't it a feeling that we must rejoice till we die??? and BTW did anyone else congregate every year like what we do???

If you ask me, msvtimes.com anniversary is a Kumbamela of sort for melody lovers where numbers don't matter but only the souls that adore MSV's music day in and day out!!!

CHEERS

MSV IS MELODY!!!

VAIDYMSV

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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While continuing our discussion about the 'hang over feeling' of the VR duo songs viz a viz MSV alone, as I have mentioned earlier the real reason could be the departing of some senior stalwart musicians like Mangalamurthy, Shyam, Philip and Noel (for a brief period). But what I would like to impress upon here is that the musicians who replaced them were not inferior to them in playing ability but had different touch. See during MSV period, since mainly acoustic instruments were used and no synthetic or electronic instrument used each instrument player had one special feature called the 'touch' or the term 'tone'. Remember Shayam also told in his speech that it was his tone that was liked by Lalgudi Jeyaram's father that he took him as his disciple.

So this is one of the major aspects which affects our music psychology while we hear the songs. The ears that had heard and enjoyed the tone of say Mangalamurthy, does not come to terms easily when the other one replaces. And as we all know that MSV exploits and brings the best out of an instrument player. This was also told in clear terms by Shyam.

Let us see an example. Let us take the case of say Accordion. The touch by Mangalamurhty would be divine as we hear the songs like 'athan en athan' or 'Netru varai nee yaaroo' or 'avalikenna' or 'Thathai nenjam'. The man who replaced him Ben Surender may not have the same touch as Mangalamurthy. But he has a different style and his forte was his speed and MSV rightfully exploited that talent from him. I have heard our friends say about MSV quoted about Ben Surender's speed and called him 'Asuran'.


Just hear the song prelude of 'thanga padhakkathin mela' and we will know the truth behind his words. To give more example hear the song 'innoru vaanam innoru nilavu' from 'Netru Indru Naalai' and see his counters for each line of the pallavi. And his speed in the song 'jillendru katru vandhodho' is very much known to us.

So these factors are very important when we discuss about a Music Directors path.


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madhuraman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:48 pm    Post subject: Articles and writings Reply with quote

Dear Mr. NY M and friends,
Despite my abyss in interpreting musical note or related nuances of 'raga' or chords assemblage and so on, nothing interferes with the delight that readily shrouds me on listening to a vast majority of MSV's compositions.

I am able to visualize extraordinary perfection in any song progression from this creator. Yes, he right away catches the mood of the song which is the vital element to play on. Look at how 'veNNilA mugam' progresses from a gentle pace in pallavi; come the charaNam his strategies are different in packing emotions through styles of singing between the song partners, buffs and rebuffs and terminal 'gamaks' that simply hijack the listener.
His repertoire is so vast that he does not have to repeat anything; gifted he is that he selects a nudge here a nudge there for specific instruments at spots which instantly gather pep and keep the adrenalin in tempo state that the listener is mesmerized, no matter what his knowledge profile on the subject 'music' is. That he does it with flamboyance at will is true reflection of his musical brain?, mind? horizon? or all rolled into one?

Except to concede that Goddess Saraswathy descends into his 'being' only to pick out note after note, tone after tone in an unabated stream, nothing else seems feasible. Yes, listen to any MSV number ; there is a captivating flow of fine instrumental meander that keeps flowing like Ganges in a crystal clear expression of serenity and majesty. It is this voice-instrument embrace [politely conspicuous] that puts MSV on the top most pedestal as genuine composer. Taking cue from what NY M has suggested, Tones are as different as are the hues of a colour . Only an ultimate creator can confer colour codes on to the plumage of birds or the innumerable permutations in floral colouration and pattern. Now, extrapolating this larger example, MSV -the creator INSTINCTIVELY KNOWS what tones to combine and in what sequence, for what effect. His compositions could never have been consciously synthesized ; for, he imbibes the mood of the lyric and musically responds to it. So, his sense of articulation is perfect and unparalleled. If someone were to say that I will use Sitar here and Shenoy there, it may look novel by breaking some convention. But, with MSV, there are no conventions, he has been effectively RE-DEFINING certain practices without being vociferous.
Understandably creators never make noise, what they create can speak by itself without seeking some spokesman to highlight. That is M S V !

Thanks for the opportunity.
Warm regards K.Raman Madurai
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prof Raman wrote
Quote:

Except to concede that Goddess Saraswathy descends into his 'being' only to pick out note after note, tone after tone in an unabated stream, nothing else seems feasible. Yes, listen to any MSV number ; there is a captivating flow of fine instrumental meander that keeps flowing like Ganges in a crystal clear expression of serenity and majesty. It is this voice-instrument embrace [politely conspicuous] that puts MSV on the top most pedestal as genuine composer.


Yes. I have to quote again the song 'thanga padhakkathin mele' basically it is composed and orchestrated after the split of VR and surely post Philip, Mangalamurthy, Shyam departure. As once told by MSV himself here the tune came first and the lyric followed. Yet when we hear the orchestration we find it is weaved as a single fabric with out any cris-cross effect of instrument and the voice. Look at the Mandolins followup emphasis when PS sings 'kothodu muthaada vanchi kodiyai thottu thodaravadhu enna ....?. That is what makes MSV special. This very tiny musical piece marvel lifts the whole mood of the song. And as you have mentioned there is never a dull moment in the whole song which makes the listener to seek again and again. You have rightly compared it with the flow of Ganges as the flow of water is new always, so also his music gives fresher feelings every time you hear.


Prof Raman wrote
Quote:
His repertoire is so vast that he does not have to repeat anything; gifted he is that he selects a nudge here a nudge there for specific instruments at spots which instantly gather pep and keep the adrenalin in tempo state that the listener is mesmerized, no matter what his knowledge profile on the subject 'music' is. That he does it with flamboyance at will is true reflection of his musical brain?, mind? horizon? or all rolled into one?


Again yes. I only wish to add a proof by taking the above song again. Look at the pallavi in the opening wherein he responds with the strings of violins when TMS sings 'oru muthu pathithadhu pole'(followed by vilions), 'indha pattu kannangalin mele'(followed by vilions). He does this to give life for those words. It is so captivating that one would be expecting it to be repeated. But on hearing the pallavi again after the first and the second charanam these violin follow ups are conspicuously absent. And as expected he does it again when the finishing pallavi comes.

MSV once said that 'pallavi is like a face. It has to be bright. And we would not only see this in pallavi, but even the prelude will imply that effect. And his finishing pallavi would be like a 'summing up' effect. It would be either done with fast rhythms, or a violin overlaps, or humming or counter humming that depends purely on the mood of the song.

I finish my post by saying that he carried this trait before and after the split. Take for example the song 'silai eduthan' . He begins the mood of the place Mamallapuram by creating a sound of a chisel hitting the stone and once the pallavi starts with the word 'silai eduthan oru chinna pennukku, kalai koduthan aval vanna kannukku' it is followed with a chorus humming.
And you would notice the same chorus humming is repeated at the end of the song making us feel that the people who have gone for sight seeing have started at one place and had come back to the same place.


And he does it again in another song 'Madras nalla Madras' (Which is post VR split) where once the mentioned words have been sung 'it starts with a fast speed Guitar, and viloins with the bangos rhythm. The same is repeated again when the song ends again making us feel that the character has seen the city and had come back to the same place where he had started. And the speed of the above said instrument defines the hurry of the city folks as the lyric itself says clearly 'medhuva poravuga yaarumilla'

Thanks,

N Y Murali
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Venugopalan Soundararajan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel this is an unnecessary discussion.

With due respects to TKR, I would like to state that the entire world knows who composed and gave us the innumerable melodies.

The two all time giant lyricists of the Tamil film industry - Kannadasan and Vaali - had never spoken about their experiences with TKR, if any, as far as song compositions involving MSV-TKR duo was concerned. They had always spoken about MSV only and his greatness. Vaali never forgot to mention a fact till his death, i.e. "MSVஐ சந்திக்கும் வரை எனக்கு சாப்பாட்டிற்கு வழியில்லை. MSVயை சந்தித்த பிறகோ எனக்கு சாப்பிட நேரமில்லை".

Though, their official separation was in 1965 - Aayirathil Oruvan being the last movie - it actually happened much earlier. I had attended many MSV stage programmes in 1964 (the advertisements said "விஸ்வானாதன் ராமமூர்த்தியின் மெல்லிசை நிகழ்ச்சி"), but TKR was never present in those shows. In the song 'Avalukkenna...' of Server Sundaram (again a 1964 film), you cannot see TKR, but only MSV swiftly swinging into action.

After their separation, TKR composed music for just 19 movies, that too over a period of 20 years (1966 to 1986), whereas MSV composed for more than 400 mvoies in Tamil alone, and is still going strong.

This is not to degrade TKR in any manner, but only to quote a few examples as to who was/is the real Master.

If some ignorant person utters some foolish remarks, it is better to ignore them and move on.

Regards,
Venu Soundar
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venu Sir wrote

Quote:
I feel this is an unnecessary discussion.


Dear Sir, While I appreciate your informative post, I wish to disagree(politely) with you on the above point. As a very senior MSV'S music appreciator, you may be privy to very important information like 'TKR did not even participate in the light music programmes conducted during 1964 but yet the title carried 'Viswanathan Ramamurthy Orchestra', yet people like me who started noticing MSV in the 70s , have to depend only on hearsay. So in order to find the truth I had to dig in to his compositions both Pre VR and Post VR era and had to form my own opinion. And while presenting I am trying to be as rational and unbiased as my intention to bring the truth only as we all know the real reason of split or for the matter who got involved in composing during the duo's era to the readers. There are many more younger generation who still adore his MSV'S musical prowess and these post should give them a better insight to make them judge better on their own.

Venu Sir further wrote

Quote:
If some ignorant person utters some foolish remarks, it is better to ignore them and move on.


Again my friendly caution to you Sir, that if you read some of the writings you would notice that they are in no way ignorant but have some personal prejudice.

Is Mr. Ramamoorthy, the son of B Rajam is ignorant? Certainly not. Well as rightly pointed out by Sivasankaran, the incident occured during Kalai Kovil with Veenai Balachander carried on in Mr. Ramamoorthy's head even now that he choose to bulldoze me in our writing in the Youtube.

I am just giving some few examples written by some who can I am sure influence the readers because of their position.

From: N.Chandrasekar (@ 141.209.34.125) on: Sat Dec 7 15:02:02 EST 2002

i AM FOLLOWING FROM MY VERY EARLY YEARS TKR-MSV.MY COUSIN WAS 2ND ACCORDIAN TO SG.MANGALAMURTHY WHO WAS IN VR TROOP.
I also know PL.Sriramulu &Diwakar and many others in VR troops.They are all praise for Ramu(TKR)&he so sole brain behind the entire Music in VR films.
TKR composition continued even in films around 27
in nos which was relesed after August 1965 but came in the name of MSV.This will be evident if you hear the BGmusic after these songs,starting from NEE to CHANDROODAYAM.But MSV with help of
Kannadasan(who was in Congress at 1965) did played dirty trick and put his name in all 27 films.Unforunately TKR who is master musician is not good in presentation &didn't use his good relations with MGR.It is bad state affair of Tamil
Film which did not use the great musician TKR
(grand son of Malkotai Govindaswami Pillai,a
Great Violnist in ealy 20th century &son of KrishnaPillai,violnist in Govinraju Pillai's Troop)
Chandrasekar.N
MountPleasant,Michigan




I am also quoting another write up

From: MRK Raju (@ 66.188.44.5Cool on: Tue Apr 15 15:22:42 EDT 2003

I was a reccording assistant with CRS and then withTKR in VR troupe between 1947 to 1953.In mid 1949 MSV came to CRS to join his troup but CRS refused & it was TKR who took pity and forced CRS to take him.
During those days CRS & TKR were very close &both had regards on each other.Genarally TKR will play the tunes in violin and CRS will approve and BGM swaras were mainly done by TKR.Though TKR was not named as asst.MD in titles he was next to CRS.When CRS died in 1951 TKR was shocked and before he could react MSV went in hurry to Banumathi &told he will compelete unfinished portion left by CRS,( it is different story that TKR had redo all MSV's tunes during BGM recording ,and ungrateful MSV did not include TKR name In title)
CRS was totally unhappy about MSV signing for film GENNOVA since as per CRS ,MSV has no knowledce on musical composing and if CRS was alive for another month he would have sent him out.
This is the reason why TKR was not keen to join wih MSV but NSK,ALS.GN Velumani &BS Ranga persuaded him to become a CO-MD.
MSV knowing his shortcomings was very loyal to TKR.
TKR will play tunes in violin and MSV will play the tunes to Producer/Directors and play back singers.All BGM swaras ,selection of instrument mix were by TKR and PRwork/showbusiness were by MSV.This was trend from1951 to August 1965.TKR was very poor in communication and in selling himself though his best MD in INDIA.
Splilt came because of MSV's greedy/Kannadasan&CVSridhar"s enemity with TKR and not because of TKR's Alcholisim as mentioned by your Mr. Manisekaran.
TKR , after 1960, started giving 1or2 tunes for selection to director because he is better judge of tunes and he will not give tunes for badly written lyrics(eg. Atamanathan's lyrics in film "Marakka MUdiyuma" which was latter written by "MK" ).TKR refused to change his tunes for film "Kadalikka Neramillai" as demanded by Sridhar.So Sridhar was unhappy with him .TKR refused to Finance for Kannadasan for his film "Karruppanam" and so he instigated MSV to
spilit with TKR and promising to help him.He really helped him by applying his political pressure on all producers of 27 films for which tunes were compeleted and were under production to delete TKR"s name.This films were released between September 1965to1968,eg. "Chandrodayam".It is great loss to TKR from which he could not come out.
MSV composed his first tune on his own,after "Gennova" in film "ANBEVAA",the last song and one for film Nadodi, His first full fledged music was in Balaji"s film Thangaikka in March 1967. This is the rason peple thought he is the origanal in VR but which is totally wrong.This eident from tunes composed after 1967.
TKR is the MD and MSV is good PRO.


Remember these post have been made in 2003(that too after MSV-TKR patch up in 1996) and not in 1970.

Are these people who claimed to be recording engineers, friends of musician in VR orchestra are ignorant?

These people had some personal grudge against MSV right from their earlier days and have been continuously and consistently utilizing the available forum to spread wrong information.

So I was waiting for an opportune moment and it was Shyam's speech that can carry weight and not ours. And thus I decided to write this thread.

One could ask me 'What effect could these people's opinion do that too now after 50 years of the split?'. I wish to share one information which many of us are not known.

MSV & Vani Jeyaram were a signature away for the National Award in 1972 for the movie 'Aboorva Ragangal' and yet due to the interference by an influential lobby that his name was deleted and it was Vani alone who got the award.


N Y Murali
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Venugopalan Soundararajan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr Murali,

First of all, please note I am not just a MSV-appreciator. As everyone in this Forum already knows, I am an MSV Bhaktan (probably the senior-most in this Forum - I am nearing 65).

Thanks for your detailed reply. Just one question will make all such people, who have a misconception that the tunes during the MSV-TKR period were composed by TKR and not MSV, keep their mouth shut is: "If your statements are correct, then how come TKR could score music for just 19 movies between 1966 and 1986 and where did the quality go hiding in his compositions in these 19 films, which were hardly comparable to the songs of the MSV-TKR era and how come MSV scored music for 400+ movies after the separation and almost 90% of them were super hits and are still hits and heard over and over again???". Will they have an answer for this question?

Another important factor I would like to recall is, for composing the songs of Karnan, Mr B R Banthulu sent MSV and Kannadasan to Bangalore. He had booked them Hotel rooms for a week, but the duo completed the job in just 3 days. We have heard this from many sources, including Ms Vijayalakshmi, daughter of Mr Banthulu. Where was Mr TKR that time?

Kavignar Vaali started working with MSV (MSV-TKR?) since the 1963 movie 'Idhayathil Nee'. MSV-TKR separation (officially) was in mid-1965, which means Vaali was involved with TKR too for more than two years. But why did Vaali never utter a single word about his working experiences with TKR??

Director K S Gopalakrishnan had mentioned in some of his interviews that MSV recommended Vaali to him for writing the lyrics of 'Karpagam', which KSG initially refused but later agreed reluctantly. KSG had also showered high praises on MSV (as is the case with almost all the Directors who have worked with MSV) for his composing quality and skills.

Singer P B Srinivas was always of high praise for MSV's high quality composing and musical skills and thanked him for the success of his songs. This goes for many other singers also including TMS & PS. Why did these singers not come out with any such praises for TKR??

SPB even today keeps mentioning "We are all confortably travelling on the concrete road laid by MSV". Malaysia Vasudevan, who was the guest judge for one of the semi-finals of "Adhiradi Singer" on Sun TV (my daughter Mathangi was the runner-up of this competition), said "It is melody, if MSV just touches the harmonium".

We can come out with many more such references and questions. But, let them first answer these few questions.

Regards,
Venu Soundar
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S.Balaji
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another important factor I would like to recall is, for composing the songs of Karnan, Mr B R Banthulu sent MSV and Kannadasan to Bangalore. He had booked them Hotel rooms for a week, but the duo completed the job in just 3 days. We have heard this from many sources, including Ms Vijayalakshmi, daughter of Mr Banthulu. Where was Mr TKR that time?


Dear Venu ji,

My viewpoint is that MSV always provided the tune ....while TKR had been instrumental in the orchestration arrangement ...

So, in the case of Karnan, Kavignar-MSV would have been to Blr to compose the base tunes and the Lyrics only....

For orchestration, it would have happened in Chennai ....There is another famous information that MSV invited the Late Bismillah Khan for the double Shehnai ( Iravum nilavum )....

I have the highest regards for TKR as a Violinist.....I remember TKR playing the prelude of Naalam Naalam with consummate ease during a Dhoordharshan programme where he was interviewed.....

Why TKR failed and why he couldnt score beyond 20 odd movies ?? Well, all we can say is that there were many such Composers ....Govarthanam, G.K.Venkatesh ( though highly successful in Kannada ), the great V.Kumar ( not many movies )....Do we have answer for these stalwarts who faded away ??

TKR started with a bang....Naan's songs are even today popular ..you can hear the Electric Guitar extensively used ... Sad that he didnt succeed....

Vasantha kaalam varumo....an ever lasting melody !

MSV had a golden opportunity to work with MGR and all are glorious hits..... Poor TKR didnt get any chance ...

MSV was the dominant force ever since the split and it was MSV wave for many many years .....So, its no surprise that TKR didnt last long....

I am seeing most of the posts here questioning TKR's capabilities ...its really sad to see.....Atleast from now pls refrain .....We are all MSV worshippers. .......there is no second thought on this.....but while worshipping MSV, we need not denigrate TKR...

In a partnership, there can never be a silent partner in music especially.....Yes, may be during1965 , TKR would have become isolated but prior to that, definitely , he had played the role of a partner which is visible in the quality of songs....
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N Y MURALI
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Balaji,
Thanks for your detailed post. While I do agree that the composition of Karnan taking place in Bangalore with MSV-KD going there, but during the actual recording TKR could have contributed. Yes possible but there are are no proofs. As you have mentioned it was MSV who composed the songs for that movie decided to invite some Hindustani musicians from Bombay and hence we now know clearly that who decided what instruments to be played for those songs, and to be played by whom.

Plus I wish to mention one interview of Shri Ram Narayan Bhat, the celebrated Sarangi player who mentioned that he had played for many Bollywood music composers and they always ask him to play a a melody based on a situation by only providing the number of bars(time) for the melody and he would always play his own creation. But he said that it was only M S Viswanathan who gave him the notes and asked him to play those notes.

The notes which he mentioned was the prelude piece before the PBS song 'enna koduthan edhai koduthan'. This clearly establishes the fact as to who was giving note even in actual recording leave alone the composing.

Anyway again Please understand I am in no way belittling the talent or the knowledge of Shri TKR.

I am of the firm opinion that TKR contribution was there during the duo period more during the 50s when they have based their compositions on the Carnatic Raagas. But from 'Paava mannippu' it is questionable.

I am quoting Vaidy's post

Quote:
Dear All,

While many have written their point of view which is very well taken, yet another factor that has to be brought to the forum is that, traditionally most of the yesteryear MD's completely depended on the classical music to score for films and this includes all the who's who we can think of. But, it was this sheer innovator called MSV who deviated from this culture and had the guts to introduce a new genre of music that transcended all barriers laid down by the classical music & it's grammar. People like Semmangudi, MS, MLV were awestruck at the pinnacle of imagination of this giant called MSV. They even welcomed this change whole heartedly (some possibly with some reluctance inside for obvious reasons but the majority never failed to take notice of this little giant)...


One important point to note is that MSV while introducing the new genre of music, not only applied for light music soongs, or the Western Music Based songs which are perfectly possible, but he even utilized that technique while composing for the traditional songs which are Raaga based. One of the important proof are the songs of Karnan.

It is this facet of MSV which made people like Semmangudi, MS or MLV getting awestruck.

If somebody says that he has not heard a Karaharapriya like 'Maharajan Ulagai aallalaam' it is that approach of MSV.

So let us explore further. And I feel there is nothing wrong in actually telling the fact as facts rather than hiding oneself behind diplomacy.

N Y Murali
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parthavi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Balaji,
You say that MSV created the tunes and TKR was instrumental in the orchestration arrangement. This is a great injustice to MSV who has demonstarated his excellence in innovation in orchestration in almost every film. On the other hand, TKR's compositions had very lean orchestration. You have mentioned about his playing the prelude of naalaam naalaam thirunaalaam in a DD program. There is no debate about the fact that TKR could pmay the violin with consummate skill. The entire debate has stemmed from the totally unjustified assertions of some people that the VR compositions were the sole creations of TKR. It is incorrect to say TKR didn't get many opportunities. He was given chance by people like Bhim Singh and TR Ramannaa. He composed for the Sivaji film Thanga Churangam. 'ival oru pournami,' a color film based on classical music and dance was released with a high profile publicity about TKR's music. But not a single song from this film was pleasing.

When exaggerated claims about one of the duo are raised by belittling another who has demonstrated his skills again and again, a few unpleasant facts will have to be brought out. Even Mr. Venu Soundar who described the entire debate as unnecessary in his previous post was provoked to share some facts to refute some of the claims after N Y Murali had shared the mischievous and vicious comments by a couple of people claiming to have had inside info about the working of the duo.
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